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	<title>Comments on: Whither polite Victorian Steampunk society?</title>
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	<link>http://otenth.org/2009/01/04/whither-polite-victorian-steampunk-society/</link>
	<description>The virtual life of Otenth Paderborn</description>
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		<title>By: Valentine Janus</title>
		<link>http://otenth.org/2009/01/04/whither-polite-victorian-steampunk-society/comment-page-1/#comment-5433</link>
		<dc:creator>Valentine Janus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Jan 2009 22:49:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://otenth.homefries.org/?p=595#comment-5433</guid>
		<description>When I became a sim owner and copied shamelessly from the collected wisdom of others in drafting a &lt;a href=&quot;http://newdeseret.wordpress.com/covenant/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;covenant&lt;/a&gt;, I used the covenant of Caledon for inspiration far more than any other source -- including especially its commitment to avatar rights.  I would not call it little-noticed, at least among the discerning sort that so often find their way to that land.

Val</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When I became a sim owner and copied shamelessly from the collected wisdom of others in drafting a <a href="http://newdeseret.wordpress.com/covenant/" rel="nofollow">covenant</a>, I used the covenant of Caledon for inspiration far more than any other source &#8212; including especially its commitment to avatar rights.  I would not call it little-noticed, at least among the discerning sort that so often find their way to that land.</p>
<p>Val</p>
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		<title>By: CoyoteAngel Dimsum</title>
		<link>http://otenth.org/2009/01/04/whither-polite-victorian-steampunk-society/comment-page-1/#comment-5406</link>
		<dc:creator>CoyoteAngel Dimsum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Jan 2009 06:31:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://otenth.homefries.org/?p=595#comment-5406</guid>
		<description>Thank you so much, Your Grace, for this post, and indeed to everyone who has so graciously responded.  I love the Venn diagram.

I would urge everyone to right-click on Caledon ground and read the Covenant found under the About Land... section.  Mr. Shang solicited comments from a wide variety of Caledon residents, and I am pleased to see that the rights and responsibilities sections have stood the test of time.

On those occasions when I feel the need to snark, I will endeavour mightily to first say, &quot;Is what I&#039;m about to say or do going to make Mr. Shang&#039;s, Mr. Drinkwater&#039;s, or the other Duchess&#039; lives easier or harder?&quot;  

I will strive to become a more educated, refined, and polite rabbit.  

-CAD, Baroness Lovelace</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you so much, Your Grace, for this post, and indeed to everyone who has so graciously responded.  I love the Venn diagram.</p>
<p>I would urge everyone to right-click on Caledon ground and read the Covenant found under the About Land&#8230; section.  Mr. Shang solicited comments from a wide variety of Caledon residents, and I am pleased to see that the rights and responsibilities sections have stood the test of time.</p>
<p>On those occasions when I feel the need to snark, I will endeavour mightily to first say, &#8220;Is what I&#8217;m about to say or do going to make Mr. Shang&#8217;s, Mr. Drinkwater&#8217;s, or the other Duchess&#8217; lives easier or harder?&#8221;  </p>
<p>I will strive to become a more educated, refined, and polite rabbit.  </p>
<p>-CAD, Baroness Lovelace</p>
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		<title>By: Fogwoman Gray</title>
		<link>http://otenth.org/2009/01/04/whither-polite-victorian-steampunk-society/comment-page-1/#comment-5405</link>
		<dc:creator>Fogwoman Gray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Jan 2009 06:25:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://otenth.homefries.org/?p=595#comment-5405</guid>
		<description>My thanks to you for helping me clarify my rather chaotic thougts on all this. And I had to laugh at Des since his &quot;little noticed&quot; avatar rights addition is what attracted me here in the first place - along with his committment to treating everyone equally, with respect, and as adults. Frankly, I would be quite put out to be made to feel that someone was going to censor and moderate what I have to say in any life. Yes, I talk far too much....a personal fault in both lives. I am a natural storyteller and do tend to ramble on. I am also probably guilty of several of the other very hurtful labels that have been bandied about on blogs. What I try to do (not always successfully) is to ask &quot;how will this be helpful?&quot; before speaking or posting anything. Sometimes the help is advisory, sometimes supportive, sometimes to lighten the mood with some silliness. But I have come to the conclusion in my life that kindness and respectful compassion is far more important than polity or propriety.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My thanks to you for helping me clarify my rather chaotic thougts on all this. And I had to laugh at Des since his &#8220;little noticed&#8221; avatar rights addition is what attracted me here in the first place &#8211; along with his committment to treating everyone equally, with respect, and as adults. Frankly, I would be quite put out to be made to feel that someone was going to censor and moderate what I have to say in any life. Yes, I talk far too much&#8230;.a personal fault in both lives. I am a natural storyteller and do tend to ramble on. I am also probably guilty of several of the other very hurtful labels that have been bandied about on blogs. What I try to do (not always successfully) is to ask &#8220;how will this be helpful?&#8221; before speaking or posting anything. Sometimes the help is advisory, sometimes supportive, sometimes to lighten the mood with some silliness. But I have come to the conclusion in my life that kindness and respectful compassion is far more important than polity or propriety.</p>
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		<title>By: Otenth</title>
		<link>http://otenth.org/2009/01/04/whither-polite-victorian-steampunk-society/comment-page-1/#comment-5402</link>
		<dc:creator>Otenth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Jan 2009 03:49:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://otenth.homefries.org/?p=595#comment-5402</guid>
		<description>Miss Callisto has clarified that &quot;&lt;a href=&quot;http://minervan.wordpress.com/2009/01/03/the-rumours-of-caledons-death/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;land squabble=openspace&lt;/a&gt;.&quot; I guess we just have very, very different measures of how serious something can be and still be called a &quot;squabble.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Miss Callisto has clarified that &#8220;<a href="http://minervan.wordpress.com/2009/01/03/the-rumours-of-caledons-death/" rel="nofollow">land squabble=openspace</a>.&#8221; I guess we just have very, very different measures of how serious something can be and still be called a &#8220;squabble.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Telemachus Dean</title>
		<link>http://otenth.org/2009/01/04/whither-polite-victorian-steampunk-society/comment-page-1/#comment-5396</link>
		<dc:creator>Telemachus Dean</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Jan 2009 21:07:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://otenth.homefries.org/?p=595#comment-5396</guid>
		<description>Guvnah,

Well, it seems I have missed much while abroad.

You speak like a true gentleman here; this is no surprise.  

I do not know precisely what is going on in Caledon, and I do not know if the new tensions are qualitatively different from the old tensions.  But since polity, Victorian manners, seem to be under discussion, may I say this: polity, at its Caledon essence, is not restraint or grim formality.  It provides a gentle atmosphere, a safe and elegant ground for human interaction and furthered intimacy.  It dulls the sharp edges we all wear by nature.

In Caledon one cannot merely go &quot;by the books&quot; because the source texts for the culture are so diverse.  Yet I do not think Caledon, even at its most Victorian, was or should ever be a full and accurate mirror of Victorian culture, a culture with its full share of sexism, homophobia, colonial nationalism, and racism (&quot;exterminate all the brutes&quot; etc.)  But what Caledon did, and I am sure still does at its best, is take the sweetest parts of Victorian formality and poeticize them into something quite immersive and lovely.  It allowed a middle class American like myself to feel the noblesse oblige, to mentor and protect others in ways I never could in rl, to interact with masculine style.  If all polity is lost, if the Victorian-esque articulate restraint is utterly ditched, Caledon will be nothing but nice clothing and builds.  Manners and decorum may take effort, but they are worth the pains.   For me that includes the Chat.

Perhaps it is too bad we backed off an official code duello for Caledon.  Such a thing often forces formal reconciliation and recognizes hurtful speech for what it is.  But now I ramble.  

All this said, I cannot echo enough what you say above, Desmond.  Forgiveness, tolerance, empathy...these are very high virtues indeed; these matter above all things.  In my best experiences in Caledon, and they were countless, it was central to the magic that these virtues were blended with sweet societal manner.  The best role players knew how to do both across diverse situations.  It should always be so, in my view.

In your service always, (and I think this is the last time I can sign my name this way, sadly)

Sir Telemachus Dean, ORR</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Guvnah,</p>
<p>Well, it seems I have missed much while abroad.</p>
<p>You speak like a true gentleman here; this is no surprise.  </p>
<p>I do not know precisely what is going on in Caledon, and I do not know if the new tensions are qualitatively different from the old tensions.  But since polity, Victorian manners, seem to be under discussion, may I say this: polity, at its Caledon essence, is not restraint or grim formality.  It provides a gentle atmosphere, a safe and elegant ground for human interaction and furthered intimacy.  It dulls the sharp edges we all wear by nature.</p>
<p>In Caledon one cannot merely go &#8220;by the books&#8221; because the source texts for the culture are so diverse.  Yet I do not think Caledon, even at its most Victorian, was or should ever be a full and accurate mirror of Victorian culture, a culture with its full share of sexism, homophobia, colonial nationalism, and racism (&#8220;exterminate all the brutes&#8221; etc.)  But what Caledon did, and I am sure still does at its best, is take the sweetest parts of Victorian formality and poeticize them into something quite immersive and lovely.  It allowed a middle class American like myself to feel the noblesse oblige, to mentor and protect others in ways I never could in rl, to interact with masculine style.  If all polity is lost, if the Victorian-esque articulate restraint is utterly ditched, Caledon will be nothing but nice clothing and builds.  Manners and decorum may take effort, but they are worth the pains.   For me that includes the Chat.</p>
<p>Perhaps it is too bad we backed off an official code duello for Caledon.  Such a thing often forces formal reconciliation and recognizes hurtful speech for what it is.  But now I ramble.  </p>
<p>All this said, I cannot echo enough what you say above, Desmond.  Forgiveness, tolerance, empathy&#8230;these are very high virtues indeed; these matter above all things.  In my best experiences in Caledon, and they were countless, it was central to the magic that these virtues were blended with sweet societal manner.  The best role players knew how to do both across diverse situations.  It should always be so, in my view.</p>
<p>In your service always, (and I think this is the last time I can sign my name this way, sadly)</p>
<p>Sir Telemachus Dean, ORR</p>
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		<title>By: Desmond Shang</title>
		<link>http://otenth.org/2009/01/04/whither-polite-victorian-steampunk-society/comment-page-1/#comment-5395</link>
		<dc:creator>Desmond Shang</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Jan 2009 19:37:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://otenth.homefries.org/?p=595#comment-5395</guid>
		<description>Otenth, you&#039;ve nailed it.  This is exactly it.

* * * * *

I would like to add a few words.  Nearly two years ago, an &#039;avatar rights&#039; list was added to Caledon&#039;s covenant.  Few really paid much attention to it at the time, quite frankly.   

On many estates, dressing wrong or not being part of the &#039;in crowd&#039; means you are going to walk a tough road.  Not just with a clique, but with the estate owner himself.  In some places, even appearance can get you expelled within seconds.  Alright, that&#039;s fine, people can choose to be that way in their lands.

But for Caledon I chose a very different course.  

Politeness isn&#039;t the issue.  It&#039;s perfectly possible to be a complete ass while being polite - I see people do it to each other constantly.  The issue is being decent, genuine, compassionate, forgiving.

- That includes not being a jerk on the chat in the first place.  

- It also includes tolerance of other&#039;s social mistakes. 

* * * * *

A number of people have recalled incidents, chatlogs, you-name-it where such-and-such did so-and-so, or cussed or acted in a manner on ISC chat that is exactly opposite of positions currently taken.  Just about everybody has something on everybody.  I shall have none of it, please don&#039;t bother to send it to me.  

&quot;Why won&#039;t I respond?&quot;  Because it&#039;s just not classy.  Des doing petty drama... that would speak volumes more than anything else. 

Everyone has their moments of revelry, everyone mis-steps sometimes.  Everyone.  I&#039;m not going to dissect it later.   That breaks a code of civility beyond words.

If someone&#039;s hitting the chardonnay a bit too hard, or distraught and tetchy due to a close RL death, have compassion and a little understanding.  It&#039;s important.  Later on you might find out that so-and-so experienced the death of a close loved one.  That someone is transgendered and terrified of rejection if found out.  That someone else is about to go through chemotherapy.  That someone else just lost their job, and is in tears.  

If there is any common denominator across the people of Caledon - most of you are going through some pretty tough times right now.  The last thing any of you need is reprisal from an estate owner, or ostracism from a group.

I&#039;m far from perfect, but I shall do my best.  It&#039;s all I can do.

I&#039;m actually listening to everyone, believe it or not - and am actively seeking ways to make the community happier overall without dishing out reprisal or using other &#039;negative&#039; means.  I am not eager to mete out social justice - because in the end, I stand to be judged too.  

Desmond Shang, Guvnah
Independent State of Caledon</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Otenth, you&#8217;ve nailed it.  This is exactly it.</p>
<p>* * * * *</p>
<p>I would like to add a few words.  Nearly two years ago, an &#8216;avatar rights&#8217; list was added to Caledon&#8217;s covenant.  Few really paid much attention to it at the time, quite frankly.   </p>
<p>On many estates, dressing wrong or not being part of the &#8216;in crowd&#8217; means you are going to walk a tough road.  Not just with a clique, but with the estate owner himself.  In some places, even appearance can get you expelled within seconds.  Alright, that&#8217;s fine, people can choose to be that way in their lands.</p>
<p>But for Caledon I chose a very different course.  </p>
<p>Politeness isn&#8217;t the issue.  It&#8217;s perfectly possible to be a complete ass while being polite &#8211; I see people do it to each other constantly.  The issue is being decent, genuine, compassionate, forgiving.</p>
<p>- That includes not being a jerk on the chat in the first place.  </p>
<p>- It also includes tolerance of other&#8217;s social mistakes. </p>
<p>* * * * *</p>
<p>A number of people have recalled incidents, chatlogs, you-name-it where such-and-such did so-and-so, or cussed or acted in a manner on ISC chat that is exactly opposite of positions currently taken.  Just about everybody has something on everybody.  I shall have none of it, please don&#8217;t bother to send it to me.  </p>
<p>&#8220;Why won&#8217;t I respond?&#8221;  Because it&#8217;s just not classy.  Des doing petty drama&#8230; that would speak volumes more than anything else. </p>
<p>Everyone has their moments of revelry, everyone mis-steps sometimes.  Everyone.  I&#8217;m not going to dissect it later.   That breaks a code of civility beyond words.</p>
<p>If someone&#8217;s hitting the chardonnay a bit too hard, or distraught and tetchy due to a close RL death, have compassion and a little understanding.  It&#8217;s important.  Later on you might find out that so-and-so experienced the death of a close loved one.  That someone is transgendered and terrified of rejection if found out.  That someone else is about to go through chemotherapy.  That someone else just lost their job, and is in tears.  </p>
<p>If there is any common denominator across the people of Caledon &#8211; most of you are going through some pretty tough times right now.  The last thing any of you need is reprisal from an estate owner, or ostracism from a group.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m far from perfect, but I shall do my best.  It&#8217;s all I can do.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m actually listening to everyone, believe it or not &#8211; and am actively seeking ways to make the community happier overall without dishing out reprisal or using other &#8216;negative&#8217; means.  I am not eager to mete out social justice &#8211; because in the end, I stand to be judged too.  </p>
<p>Desmond Shang, Guvnah<br />
Independent State of Caledon</p>
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		<title>By: Baron Klaus Wulfenbach</title>
		<link>http://otenth.org/2009/01/04/whither-polite-victorian-steampunk-society/comment-page-1/#comment-5392</link>
		<dc:creator>Baron Klaus Wulfenbach</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Jan 2009 17:02:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://otenth.homefries.org/?p=595#comment-5392</guid>
		<description>Herr Jarl,

Bitte, &lt;a href=&quot;http://klauswulfenbach.livejournal.com/26930.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;if I might persuade you to respond&lt;/a&gt;.

Yrs.,

KW</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Herr Jarl,</p>
<p>Bitte, <a href="http://klauswulfenbach.livejournal.com/26930.html" rel="nofollow">if I might persuade you to respond</a>.</p>
<p>Yrs.,</p>
<p>KW</p>
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		<title>By: Emilly Orr</title>
		<link>http://otenth.org/2009/01/04/whither-polite-victorian-steampunk-society/comment-page-1/#comment-5385</link>
		<dc:creator>Emilly Orr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Jan 2009 00:13:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://otenth.homefries.org/?p=595#comment-5385</guid>
		<description>I will admit to still being more perturbed by the name-calling in ISC chat and in (at least one) other blog, but I am trying to be part of the solution, and not the problem, and realize that&#039;s all I really want--for people to &lt;i&gt;behave&lt;/i&gt; as if they&#039;re adults, with good manners, good senses of humor, wit and virtue and aplomb.

Does that mean everyone needs to kowtow to artificial standards and react only in PG ways?  No.  I never said that, I never meant that.  But I do enthusiastically agree with the Lyonesse in her comment on my blog: it makes for an excellent filter system if--at least most of the time--I pause to consider &quot;Would I shout this into a megaphone whilst standing in the town square?&quot;  Because that&#039;s what ISC chat truly is--the gathering place for &lt;i&gt;every&lt;/i&gt; member of the Independent State.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I will admit to still being more perturbed by the name-calling in ISC chat and in (at least one) other blog, but I am trying to be part of the solution, and not the problem, and realize that&#8217;s all I really want&#8211;for people to <i>behave</i> as if they&#8217;re adults, with good manners, good senses of humor, wit and virtue and aplomb.</p>
<p>Does that mean everyone needs to kowtow to artificial standards and react only in PG ways?  No.  I never said that, I never meant that.  But I do enthusiastically agree with the Lyonesse in her comment on my blog: it makes for an excellent filter system if&#8211;at least most of the time&#8211;I pause to consider &#8220;Would I shout this into a megaphone whilst standing in the town square?&#8221;  Because that&#8217;s what ISC chat truly is&#8211;the gathering place for <i>every</i> member of the Independent State.</p>
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		<title>By: Eva Bellambi</title>
		<link>http://otenth.org/2009/01/04/whither-polite-victorian-steampunk-society/comment-page-1/#comment-5382</link>
		<dc:creator>Eva Bellambi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Jan 2009 18:17:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://otenth.homefries.org/?p=595#comment-5382</guid>
		<description>Thank you very much for this post.  I think your points are most valid and express many of my thoughts as well.  I shall be linking your post from my blog.

Eva</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you very much for this post.  I think your points are most valid and express many of my thoughts as well.  I shall be linking your post from my blog.</p>
<p>Eva</p>
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